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	<title>Comments on: Disagreeing to Agree.</title>
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		<title>By: Frank Cantu</title>
		<link>http://www.biblestudy.net/2007/02/24/disagreeing-to-agree/comment-page-1/#comment-8469</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Cantu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.biblestudy.net/2007/02/20/disagreeing-to-agree/#comment-8469</guid>
		<description>thank you John because I know I could not have made it more clear than you just did. Coming from a heavily dominated Catholic area, I hear the same argument that Joanna has, and it is now becoming more clear that at least in this area the best argument coming from the priests, is that anyone who does not attend or visits any other church is in danger of hell, and can never return to the Roman Catholic Church, therefore losing any chance of getting to heaven. Jesus is Lord and He said &quot;I am the away the Truth and the Life and no ome comes to the Father but by Me&quot; John 14:6. Joanna would do well to study 1Corinthians 11:23-26, and absolutly v&#039;s 27-30, the call to examine ourself first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thank you John because I know I could not have made it more clear than you just did. Coming from a heavily dominated Catholic area, I hear the same argument that Joanna has, and it is now becoming more clear that at least in this area the best argument coming from the priests, is that anyone who does not attend or visits any other church is in danger of hell, and can never return to the Roman Catholic Church, therefore losing any chance of getting to heaven. Jesus is Lord and He said &#8220;I am the away the Truth and the Life and no ome comes to the Father but by Me&#8221; John 14:6. Joanna would do well to study 1Corinthians 11:23-26, and absolutly v&#8217;s 27-30, the call to examine ourself first.</p>
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		<title>By: John Malone</title>
		<link>http://www.biblestudy.net/2007/02/24/disagreeing-to-agree/comment-page-1/#comment-5829</link>
		<dc:creator>John Malone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.biblestudy.net/2007/02/20/disagreeing-to-agree/#comment-5829</guid>
		<description>Well, Joanna, you have given me a real opportunity here, and I am sorry to be so late responding. But it&#039;s tax time ...

I&#039;ll respond here briefly to each of your points.

First, I see that you have been trained some in the casuistry that must prevade Boston College there, what with its army of Jesuits assaulting your young mind. 

BC plays decent basketball, and I was as happy as anybody when Doug Flutie hit Phelan in the end zone against Miami, but let&#039;s be realistic: Flutie is not Tommie Frazier, the Eagles are not the Huskers, and you aren&#039;t being taught correctly from the Scriptures, 

Let&#039;s take your position about the Roman Catholic church. You argument is mine, not a Roman Catholic one! I (and the Scriptures) claim that anyone who is born again (from above, by faith alone in Christ alone), is born into the church of God in heaven, and is therefore and thereby &quot;saved.&quot; 

But that is NOT Roman Catholic doctrine. RC doctrine is that there is no salvation outside of the RC church: that the RC has the keys to the kingdom of heaven, as they claim to have inherited from Peter. In fact, here is Roman Catholic dogma as quoted from a RC source:

The Papal Bull (well named) &lt;i&gt;Unam Sanctum&lt;/i&gt; of 1302 has never been revoked or compromised. It reads, in part, &lt;i&gt;&quot;We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; That&#039;s pretty clear what the Roman catholic Church&#039;s position is.

Now, in the middle 60&#039;s, the RC made its major push to ecumenicism, and resumed the attempted destruction of Protestantism in Europe that began with Rome&#039;s counter-reformation in the late 1500&#039;s, with America now targeted, too. Continuing in the casuistry of John Henry Newman (Newman!), the 2nd Vatican Council issued forward gobbledy-gook that, in essence, said if you believed in Christ, and did not truly protest Rome&#039;s decadence, sin, and departure, you were - unbeknownst to you even - in some kind of junior relationship with Rome, and therefore salvation came to you, YET STILL BECAUSE of your relationship to the Roman Catholic Church and NOT because of your relationship personally and directly to God through Christ.

If this sounds like circumlocution instead of the plain statements of Scripture - &quot;he that hath the Son hath life, (1st John 5:12)&quot; or, &quot;He that believeth on me hath everlasting life (John 6:47)&quot; - then you have heard the sound of one-hand clapping grasshopper: it is the sound of the mumbo-jumbo of Romanism.

Second, we have the funny way that RC&#039;s look at John 6:47-60 as quoted above from a very bad translation (the Jerusalem Bible, as taken from the corrupt Latin Vulgate &quot;translation.&quot;) Joanna says, &quot;If not in the Eucharist, where does anyone ever eat and drink the body and blood of Christ?&quot; This may be one of the few verses a RC will ever take literally. Of course, it isn&#039;t to be taken literally, and if Joanna had quoted for us the beginning of the section, we would know the CONTEXT is Jesus saying, &quot;I am the bread of life.&quot;

Now, if we are going to take this section literally, we must take it ALL literally.

That means, although Jesus looked just like a human being, He wasn&#039;t. He was a chunk of bread. As such, he could be eaten. In fact, He actually took the form of manna before He became a man.

Those people there should have just started chewing on him right then and there, and they would have, in so doing, had eternal life by Catholic thinking. Because, after all, one must LITERALLY eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus. If the apostle thught this, why wouldn&#039;t they have taken a bite out him in His sleep, or at least tried to? Just sneak up, and chomp down hard enough to draw blood.

Further, if these matters were all literal, when the Lord Jesus took bread and wine at the last supper, when he said &quot;This is my body,&quot; to what was he referring? He was flesh and blood right there. If he meant the bread (not a wafer) was His body, and not a representation thereof, what of his physical body? Did it become something else? Further, when he held up he cup, and called it the New Covenant, is that what the new Covenant is? A cup that has been misplaced?

I do not care to get profane or blasphemous here, but I am using the &lt;i&gt;argumentum ad absurdam&lt;/i&gt; to show the paucity of logic in the &quot;Eucharist&quot; question. Let me go one further. In {Acts 15:25-29}, Roman Catholic &quot;transubstantiation&quot; was outlawed as a practice in the then-Gentile churches, because the believers were prohibitied from ingesting &quot;blood,&quot; just as God had enjoined in Noah&#039;s covenant.

Of course, no one objects to RC &quot;transubstantiation&quot; (the word &quot;Eucharist&quot; means &quot;good grace,&quot; = give thanks) on the grounds of devouring blood BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS IT DOESN&#039;T REALLY HAPPEN.

Nearly finally, let me say that despite the Jesuit approach of subterfuge, you cannot have it both ways. You have claimed first that there is salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church, and then you claim that if I am not eating a transubstantiated body and blood of &quot;Jesus&quot; I do not have life. I am pretty sure you would not claim that someone who is not a Roman-Catholic-appointed-priest has the magical skills to perform the &quot;miracle.&quot; Therefore, according to Rome, one who isn&#039;t going to RC Mass and &quot;communion&quot; doesn&#039;t have life in them.

Finally, and as for you, if you have already eaten Jesus body and drunk His blood through the transubstantiated wafer, why is it that every year at &quot;Easter&quot; time you are obliged to do it again? Does it wear off, and if so, when and why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Joanna, you have given me a real opportunity here, and I am sorry to be so late responding. But it&#8217;s tax time &#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll respond here briefly to each of your points.</p>
<p>First, I see that you have been trained some in the casuistry that must prevade Boston College there, what with its army of Jesuits assaulting your young mind. </p>
<p>BC plays decent basketball, and I was as happy as anybody when Doug Flutie hit Phelan in the end zone against Miami, but let&#8217;s be realistic: Flutie is not Tommie Frazier, the Eagles are not the Huskers, and you aren&#8217;t being taught correctly from the Scriptures, </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take your position about the Roman Catholic church. You argument is mine, not a Roman Catholic one! I (and the Scriptures) claim that anyone who is born again (from above, by faith alone in Christ alone), is born into the church of God in heaven, and is therefore and thereby &#8220;saved.&#8221; </p>
<p>But that is NOT Roman Catholic doctrine. RC doctrine is that there is no salvation outside of the RC church: that the RC has the keys to the kingdom of heaven, as they claim to have inherited from Peter. In fact, here is Roman Catholic dogma as quoted from a RC source:</p>
<p>The Papal Bull (well named) <i>Unam Sanctum</i> of 1302 has never been revoked or compromised. It reads, in part, <i>&#8220;We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.&#8221;</i> That&#8217;s pretty clear what the Roman catholic Church&#8217;s position is.</p>
<p>Now, in the middle 60&#8217;s, the RC made its major push to ecumenicism, and resumed the attempted destruction of Protestantism in Europe that began with Rome&#8217;s counter-reformation in the late 1500&#8217;s, with America now targeted, too. Continuing in the casuistry of John Henry Newman (Newman!), the 2nd Vatican Council issued forward gobbledy-gook that, in essence, said if you believed in Christ, and did not truly protest Rome&#8217;s decadence, sin, and departure, you were &#8211; unbeknownst to you even &#8211; in some kind of junior relationship with Rome, and therefore salvation came to you, YET STILL BECAUSE of your relationship to the Roman Catholic Church and NOT because of your relationship personally and directly to God through Christ.</p>
<p>If this sounds like circumlocution instead of the plain statements of Scripture &#8211; &#8220;he that hath the Son hath life, (1st John 5:12)&#8221; or, &#8220;He that believeth on me hath everlasting life (John 6:47)&#8221; &#8211; then you have heard the sound of one-hand clapping grasshopper: it is the sound of the mumbo-jumbo of Romanism.</p>
<p>Second, we have the funny way that RC&#8217;s look at John 6:47-60 as quoted above from a very bad translation (the Jerusalem Bible, as taken from the corrupt Latin Vulgate &#8220;translation.&#8221;) Joanna says, &#8220;If not in the Eucharist, where does anyone ever eat and drink the body and blood of Christ?&#8221; This may be one of the few verses a RC will ever take literally. Of course, it isn&#8217;t to be taken literally, and if Joanna had quoted for us the beginning of the section, we would know the CONTEXT is Jesus saying, &#8220;I am the bread of life.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now, if we are going to take this section literally, we must take it ALL literally.</p>
<p>That means, although Jesus looked just like a human being, He wasn&#8217;t. He was a chunk of bread. As such, he could be eaten. In fact, He actually took the form of manna before He became a man.</p>
<p>Those people there should have just started chewing on him right then and there, and they would have, in so doing, had eternal life by Catholic thinking. Because, after all, one must LITERALLY eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus. If the apostle thught this, why wouldn&#8217;t they have taken a bite out him in His sleep, or at least tried to? Just sneak up, and chomp down hard enough to draw blood.</p>
<p>Further, if these matters were all literal, when the Lord Jesus took bread and wine at the last supper, when he said &#8220;This is my body,&#8221; to what was he referring? He was flesh and blood right there. If he meant the bread (not a wafer) was His body, and not a representation thereof, what of his physical body? Did it become something else? Further, when he held up he cup, and called it the New Covenant, is that what the new Covenant is? A cup that has been misplaced?</p>
<p>I do not care to get profane or blasphemous here, but I am using the <i>argumentum ad absurdam</i> to show the paucity of logic in the &#8220;Eucharist&#8221; question. Let me go one further. In {Acts 15:25-29}, Roman Catholic &#8220;transubstantiation&#8221; was outlawed as a practice in the then-Gentile churches, because the believers were prohibitied from ingesting &#8220;blood,&#8221; just as God had enjoined in Noah&#8217;s covenant.</p>
<p>Of course, no one objects to RC &#8220;transubstantiation&#8221; (the word &#8220;Eucharist&#8221; means &#8220;good grace,&#8221; = give thanks) on the grounds of devouring blood BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS IT DOESN&#8217;T REALLY HAPPEN.</p>
<p>Nearly finally, let me say that despite the Jesuit approach of subterfuge, you cannot have it both ways. You have claimed first that there is salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church, and then you claim that if I am not eating a transubstantiated body and blood of &#8220;Jesus&#8221; I do not have life. I am pretty sure you would not claim that someone who is not a Roman-Catholic-appointed-priest has the magical skills to perform the &#8220;miracle.&#8221; Therefore, according to Rome, one who isn&#8217;t going to RC Mass and &#8220;communion&#8221; doesn&#8217;t have life in them.</p>
<p>Finally, and as for you, if you have already eaten Jesus body and drunk His blood through the transubstantiated wafer, why is it that every year at &#8220;Easter&#8221; time you are obliged to do it again? Does it wear off, and if so, when and why?</p>
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		<title>By: Joanna</title>
		<link>http://www.biblestudy.net/2007/02/24/disagreeing-to-agree/comment-page-1/#comment-5826</link>
		<dc:creator>Joanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 05:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.biblestudy.net/2007/02/20/disagreeing-to-agree/#comment-5826</guid>
		<description>First, a correction of the statement about &quot;no salvation outside the Church&quot;: &quot;The Church&quot; in this situation refers to those saved by Christ in their entirety.  So basically it&#039;s the same as saying there&#039;s no salvation other than the way Christ intended it - through Him.  If you read the documents of Vatican II, you might be shocked to find the belief that people in other religions entirely can be saved.  They are not saved through their religions, but through Christ, even though they might not know it.  Clearly &quot;no faith outside the Church&quot; is not the teaching.

Secondly, an understanding from Scripture of transubstantiation (it&#039;s a long quotation, but it&#039;s worth it):

John 6:47-

&quot;&#039;Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.  I am the bread of life.  Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.  I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.&#039;
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, &#039;How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?&#039;  Jesus said to them, &#039;Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.  Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.  For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.  Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.  Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.  This is the bread that came down from heaven.  Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.&#039;  These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, &#039;This saying is hard; who can accept it?&#039;  Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, &#039;Does this shock you?  What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?  It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail.  The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.  But there are some of you who do not believe.&#039;  Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.  And he said, &#039;For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.&#039;
As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.&quot;

Look it over.  &quot;Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.&quot;  &quot;Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.  For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.&quot;  &quot;Then many of his disciples who were listening said, &#039;This saying is hard; who can accept it?&#039;&quot;

If not in the Eucharist, where does anyone ever eat and drink the body and blood of Christ?  What would have made this teaching so hard that many of His disciples wouldn&#039;t have been able to accept it?

It IS hard.  It&#039;s also a miracle.  But if you&#039;re not eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Christ, it certainly seems like Jesus is saying you do not have life within you...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, a correction of the statement about &#8220;no salvation outside the Church&#8221;: &#8220;The Church&#8221; in this situation refers to those saved by Christ in their entirety.  So basically it&#8217;s the same as saying there&#8217;s no salvation other than the way Christ intended it &#8211; through Him.  If you read the documents of Vatican II, you might be shocked to find the belief that people in other religions entirely can be saved.  They are not saved through their religions, but through Christ, even though they might not know it.  Clearly &#8220;no faith outside the Church&#8221; is not the teaching.</p>
<p>Secondly, an understanding from Scripture of transubstantiation (it&#8217;s a long quotation, but it&#8217;s worth it):</p>
<p>John 6:47-</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8216;Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.  I am the bread of life.  Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.  I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.&#8217;<br />
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, &#8216;How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?&#8217;  Jesus said to them, &#8216;Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.  Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.  For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.  Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.  Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.  This is the bread that came down from heaven.  Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.&#8217;  These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.<br />
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, &#8216;This saying is hard; who can accept it?&#8217;  Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, &#8216;Does this shock you?  What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?  It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail.  The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.  But there are some of you who do not believe.&#8217;  Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.  And he said, &#8216;For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.&#8217;<br />
As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.&#8221;</p>
<p>Look it over.  &#8220;Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.&#8221;  &#8220;Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.  For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.&#8221;  &#8220;Then many of his disciples who were listening said, &#8216;This saying is hard; who can accept it?&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>If not in the Eucharist, where does anyone ever eat and drink the body and blood of Christ?  What would have made this teaching so hard that many of His disciples wouldn&#8217;t have been able to accept it?</p>
<p>It IS hard.  It&#8217;s also a miracle.  But if you&#8217;re not eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Christ, it certainly seems like Jesus is saying you do not have life within you&#8230;</p>
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